- Guillermo Castro
- Jeff Genender
- Justin Lee
- Craig Tataryn
- Jason Whaley
- Heath Kesler
Welcome to the Basement Coders Podcast. We'll cover topics in development news, and voice our opinions. The opinions we express are from on the ground experience. So sit back, relax, and enjoy. However, if you are one that likes to give feedback, or express your own opinion, please feel free to leave comments on our blog, at BasementCoders.com. That's BasementCoders, one word, .com. Or follow us on Twitter: @BCoders. Thank you, and enjoy.
Up next, it's our pleasure to bring a very special Basement Coders podcast live from San Francisco. We were given the opportunity to sit down with James Gosling, creator of Java. We do apologize for the background noise on this one. It was taped guerrilla style at a coffee shop at the San Francisco Museum of Modern Art during a busy lunch hour. But if you can filter out the noise, you won't be disappointed, as you will get to learn some interesting facts about James – where he grew up, how his career took shape, and how Java was born. We also found out what James is up to these days and his thoughts on the current state of Java.
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Today's episode is sponsored by Zero Turnarond, the guys who make JRebel, never redeploy during development again. View your code changes instantly, this is badass<. Visit them this week at JavaOne in the Hilton Center, or at your leisure on the web at www.ZeroTurnaround.com/jrebel Many thanks goes out to the ServerSide for hosting today's podcast files. Visit them on the web at theServerSide.com, your Java enterprise community. And stay tuned, as they will soon be posting a transcription of today's podcast. So, without further ado we present out interview with James Gosling. Enjoy.
Moderator: All right, and we're back. We've got a very special episode this time around. We have James Gosling, father of Java, thanks very much for doing a podcast with us.
James Gosling: Well, thanks for inviting me.
Moderator: Alright, well, maybe you can just start with kind of how did you started out? You know, where did you grow up, where did you go to school, and then how did your career take you to this point?
James Gosling: I don't know I mean, the whole life story in 25 words or less?. I'm Canadian, went to the University of Calgary (4:25), graduated from there then went to Carnegie Mellon; got a PhD there.
Moderator: Did you grow up in Calgary then?
James Gosling: Yeah, I grew up in Calgary, I lived there until I was 22, then I went off to get a PhD in Pittsburgh in computer science, and I ended up with a Master's as well from CMU and did a wide variety of consulting jobs and then moved on to some bigger jobs. I eventually graduated in '83. Went to work for IBM which is, you know, is within the top 10 of my stupidist career decisions I've made (5:20) –
Moderator: (Laughing) I want to shake this guys' hand! Because I made that same mistake myself. But don't tell me you actually wore a Blue Suit
James Gosling: Oh no, but I did log way too many frequent flier miles and ended up working on this project that had people in San Jose California, Austin Texas and [inaudible] Connecticut; and my office officially was in NY even though I lived in Pittsburgh. So I kind of actually lived on an airplane. But yeah, the stint at IBM lasted a year, year and a half. You know, at which point, I mean the funny thing is that when I went to go join IBM I actually had another sort of offer so I had actually had lunch with Andy Bechtolsheim the day he signed the papers with Scott [McNealy[ and Vinod [Khosia] to create Sun, and so he was actually trying to join Sun at the same time, and I would've been like employee number 4 or 5 or something.
I just said, "Andy you're a nutcase. You're trying to do this with these Motorola chips that suck, and IBM's got these great chips, they will kill you." And yes, the IBM had CPU's that were way better than the Motorolla stuff, but all of IBM's guns were pointed at themselves so my year and a half working at IBM was more about understanding how the Marx brothers really worked. (All Laughing) And so then you know, they were hammering on me pretty regularly to join Sun and eventually I gave in and so I went to work at Sun the day before and now here we are.
Moderator: Right. Well, I brought this up to you when we saw you at the Thirsty Bear it's kinda funny how we approached you because I'm the kind of guy where I don't know if it's my Canadianess but I don't like to intrude on people's personal space, but I wasn't necessarily thinking oh, we can get him to do our podcast. So what we did was we actually got a few of the guys wives to come up to you.(laughing)
James Gosling: And they clearly weren't quite sure what they were doing or why they had been put up to something.
Moderator: but you just pulled out your phone right away and were like "Yeah, what time works for you? I'm good on Tuesday.", and well, now here we are, and that is just great. So this is another Canadian thing, you got the order of Canada did you not?
James Gosling: I did, I did. So if only Canada were Britian, I'd be Sir James. But Canada doesn't do the 'Sir' thing, so I escaped that particular indignity.
Moderator: That's great that somebody doing the order of Canada nominations actually knew what Java was and your contributions to it. So what kind of perks does that give you in Canada?
Moderator: You get to meet the Govener General.
James Gosling: Yeah I got to meet the Governor General, that was probably the most of it. You end up with a really cool medal.
Moderator: That's the sum total of it?
Moderator: And the studliness going into the bar with the ladies of course
Moderator: (in reference to the medal) yeah, you got the "bling" on (laughs)
James Gosling: (lauging) Oh yeah. And the funny part of it was that I ended up with my face all over the newspapers in Canada, even though there were several people that got the Order of Canada at the same time, but when the governor general, she's kind of short, so when she lifted the thing that goes over my head I kind of like crouched down and I did kind of a funny thing and it made her just howl. She just broke out laughing so she had this great laughing expression on her face, so all the newspapers selected that picture based on her expression.
10:38 Moderator: Now was Java a strategic thing for Sun or was it an experiment? Like was it a "lets do what we can, lets try a few things"
James Gosling: I'd call it a strategic experiment. And it actually worked out in a direction
10:38 Moderator: That worked out.
James Gosling: That was sort of unexpected. So at the beginning, a group of disgruntled Sun engineers (11:07) were missing the boat on X, Y and Z. We liked to go out and just think about stuff. And we had a list of things that we felt we were missing the boat on and Scott sort of went, yeah, that makes sense. So we went off and we sort of did this thing called the Green Project. The only thing that survived in the Green Project was the bit that I did which was the software development environment stuff. But we built this really neat little hand held and that was in 1992 when the state of the art for hardware to build that kind of stuff was pretty shaky. But compared to the other stuff we'd built it was extraordinarily cool for the day.
Moderator: What did it do?
12:30 James Gosling: It had an LCD touch screen, a fairly wicked processor on it. It had a very early version of 802.11. The 802.11 spec wasn't even out yet. It was actually like one of these really funky military radios.
Moderator: Sounds like a Sun SPARC.
James Gosling: No, it was actually a microSPARC. It was a microSPARC CPU and we actually ran Solaris. That's one of the things that I sure wish we had kept on, and one of the odd twists of fate is that some of the folks who did that hardware for that handheld for Sun...
Moderator: I'm actually not familiar with that, is it Sun SPARC? Or you mean the actual machines?
James Gosling: Yeah, the CPU, the SPARC – we had started doing these microSPARCs, very low-powered, very small. But a couple of the engineers that had built that phone were deeply involved in the iPad. So in an odd sort of twist of fate, the iPad is kind of an evolution of it. But yeah, so we had at the time been concerned about what was going down in the consumer space, what was going on in the desktop. CPUs were showing up in all these surprising things that most people in the computer world were just ignoring.
Moderator: It was all about big racks servers right?
James Gosling: Well at that point, the big rack servers were different from the big racks today, but by the time that '95 rolled around there was this huge industry-wide problem with Microsoft and so the strategic reasoning and focus shifted from the boat that we were missing over here to the huge attack we were getting over there and various folks realized that this one corner we had used, we could actually repurpose it when dealing with the Microsoft threat. And that was the whole Java launch, getting people like IBM and Oracle to sign on and support it. It was a very strategic thing for Sun in '95 when we launched it, but it was also a strategic thing in '92 when we started the experiment. It was just sort of strategic in different directions.
Moderator: Well, you talk about strategy, so as Craig had said, we're all contributors to the Java community and I think all of us have made a career off of Java and our contributions. I work closely with Apache and commit to several projects, I pretty much put my whole career on it. And this big acquisition came and there were a lot of questions as to where is it gonna go? Where is Java gonna go? It's no secret, and if you can't answer anything feel free not to. Feel free to speak your mind here. The whole "Free Java". We get it. Especially me coming from the Apache side, I'm not speaking for Apache, but I work closely with the JCP and JSRs and I know that there's been a lot of stress so-to-speak. The acquisition came, there's a lot of fear and mistrust in the community, we noticed you left. And we noticed your pretty cool t-shirts you've got there. (James is wearing a t-shirt depicting Larry Ellison's face on a TV screen, with Java's mascot Duke throwing a hammer at it like in the old Apple 1984-esque commercials) So tell us about all that, tell us what your thoughts are and how does that ring into the way we feel as contributors to a lot of this open source software that we base our careers on. What are your thoughts on all that?
James Gosling: Well, the tshirt had been kinda fun. I am yet to see anyone wear one.
Moderator: (jokingly) yeah, we've been all "taken care of" by the Oracle employees already, that's why you don't see us wearing them.
James Gosling: Various Oracle employees have been instructed not to wear them. I've noticed this is a great tshirt to wear in big crowds around here because the seas just parts, 'cuz people are like, 'I don't want to be near that.' Which I find really funny. And the whole free java thing is kind of a weird history with me because Sun from day zero is an open source company and this whole weirdness that we have about open source was not a weirdness open source but a weirdness about the actors and the games in the drama. So when the start of the Java foundation thing happened in 2007 what we have to understand is that that was entirely orchestrated by Oracle. Oracle wrote that bizarre clause that went in that one set of meeting minutes, they wrote that. They went around to everyone in DC and said it is the sense of the executive committee that the Java community would be best served by the established new Java and Java foundation. And so if you're an open source contributor, participant, that all sounds really good. And fundamentally we agreed with that. The problem was that A. it was driven by Oracle whose motives were more than slightly not what we wanted them to be, and they had strong-armed a bunch of people into signing in ways that made them uncomfortable. And some folks like IBM I mean, IBM's been kind of weird on the whole topic because on the one hand they do everything they can to try and screw Sun over, I mean they didn't name eclipse casually
Moderator: I was surprised that they aren't the ones that bought Sun
James Gosling: Yeah I don't know. The little bits I do know are, they were being very cagey about issues around anti-trust and that made them nervous and when the Sun's board was controlled by an extremely small number of institution investors, and so it was the institution investors who were driving everything and sale had nothing to do with business or what would be good for employees or anything like that. It was totally a bunch of investment banks needing liquidity now and they were looking for the best terms and so how it all came down, I really don't know. I'm deeply thankful I was not in those rooms at the time cause it's not something that's fun. But that's just the way the world goes. But the whole thing around the Java Foundation three years ago it was really this whole snarky back room deal by Oracle and I have no illusions about Oracle ever actually living up to their words because this is Oracle we're talking about but I find it deeply amusing, that they were deeply snarky about this three years ago but now that the shoe's on the other foot (22:45) they go NO.
Moderator: Well three years ago, they did not own Java.
James Gosling: Well that's right, hey didn't own Java, but it just points out, and I don't know how to say it other than to say they were lying, duplicitous shits three years ago and by their turnaround, they're basically admitting that. Oracle is kind of a funny company because they take glory in that. They have no issues with being categorized that way. Some of their PR people might get a little uncomfortable with it, but up at the top, they deeply, deeply don't give a shit.
Moderator: Being developers and because we've all had so much invested in our careers and we saw the acquisition occur, we saw you exit which really scared everybody, everyone said wow! We've seen a lot of strong Oracle folks jumping ship, moving on, a lot of really good people contribute to the community and then we see this lawsuit coming down the pipeline, and everyone's like, you just attacked probably one of the biggest contributors to the Java community, Google, what are you thinking? Now, that being said, Oracle's got a great Android app you can download for JavaOne, and now I'm not getting that one? So what are your thoughts on that?
James Gosling: With Oracle it doesn't have to make sense, it just has to make money. And one of the important things for the community to remember is that Oracle is deeply, deeply dependent on the success of Java. It's a really huge fraction of their business. All of their fast growing parts of their business are formerly based on it (25:30). So there are really serious limits on how weird they can get, and also, Oracle isn't a monolith, it's more monolithic than many companies because the O-pod micromanages things pretty severely but there are a lot of really good people at Oracle. And they know what the right thing to do is. And they may be constrained by business folks and the rest of this but there are a lot of people whose heart's in the right place and they will do whatever they can to do the right thing
Moderator: What are your thoughts on the lawsuit. The whole Google thing? What are your thoughts behind that?
James Gosling: It's all about money. There's nothing else in there. At Sun we'd done an analysis and yeah, there's a bunch of patents violated here.
Moderator:Is it because of the encroachment on something like ME, JavaME (mobile edition) because now ME doesn't really look that attractive with Android?
James Gosling: It was just other patents being involved and that legal guys do these evaluations all the time, and we've been through a lot of patent cases and we really, really, really, really hated litigation. It's a waste of time, it's really expensive, it's a PR nightmare when the other side is the universe's lovechild it's an especially large PR nightmare. (27:00) So the Google guys are being a little weird, but they're also being a little good, so add up the balance, but the Oracle guys want a licensing opportunity.
Moderator: So you think that's what they're going for? Trying to force a hand to make Google somehow pay up a license. Because here's the fear, the fear is if they went after Google for that what are they gonna do with Apache for example? I mean in theory, there's a lot of software like Harmony that's being used quite significantly in the Android components Isn't that the thing about open source?
James Gosling: I think that's really unlikely. I think that the licensing deals with Harmony are pretty tough. Whereas Google just sort of went (inaudible) and I'm fairly sure that the Oracle lawyers probably did their homework, Oracle hired good lawyers. And since Android is open source you look at the code – does the pattern match code in the patent?
Moderator: Was it your blog about when the deal Sun and Oracle going through, the Oracle lawyer's eyes lit up?
James Gosling: yeah, that was my blog. And they really did. They were like, ooh. Because lawyers just like to make revenue. And I'm sure they were looking at the license fees they were getting from Microsoft. Microsoft .NET just smears over a huge pile of Sun patents. When they did the .NET design, they basically cut and pasted from the Java spec. The way that they did CLR, you know they swizzled the way the instruction set went but the way this thing really operated, they exercised essentially no creativity when coming up with .NET. They've done some things since then that have been kind of good but as part of the various court cases we ended up with this rather odd patent deal with them that involved them paying us fairly tasty amounts of money. And I'm sure that the lawyers looked at the Microsoft numbers and said, yeah I want that from Google
Moderator: Ah. Now it makes sense.
James Gosling: Yeah, and so that's just a random guess that that would be their opening thought.
Moderator: You think the case has merit? Legally speaking?
James Gosling: I would guess that the Oracle lawyers did their homework. They almost, because they use open source, it's really easy for the Oracle lawyers to go out and hire third-party experts to do the comparison. So they probably actually have a fairly solid case. I mean this is one of the reasons that hardware manufacturers often don't open source their drivers. Because if they open source their drivers, then other hardware manufacturers will look at that and go, oh, well your hardware must stomp on this patent device.
Moderator: Ah, that's interesting.
James Gosling: I've had more than on hardware manufacturer tell me that.
Moderator: That's interesting. Now, your T-shirts "Set Java free" there's a vendor who got in trouble for putting out these really cool shirts in the vendor center and on the back it says "Java, Just Free It" And Oracle came in and said no, you're not giving those away so a few people went around there and kinda under the table were able to obtain them. We saw a lot of people do that. So obviously they're very sensitive about it. Tell us about that initiative and what you want to see through Java.
James Gosling: I think it's really funny how sensitive the Oracle guys are and the lengths they've gone to suppress any of this stuff. The fact Oracle employees have been told not to talk to me is really funny. And of course that hasn't stopped them from talking to me. They walk up to me and say "I'm not allowed to talk to you, but this is the latest stupid thing they've done." And what should happen going forward, it needs responsible stewardship. I'm actually perfectly happy with Oracle continuing as long as they act responsibly towards the community, and there have been recent incidents where they have not done that
And there have been a variety of things like OpenSolaris. OpenSolaris was simply a cluster-fuck for the community. It was just horrible. And the stuff they did around things like OpenSSO and the identity management things was just horrible. I think they're much less likely to do that to Java, but it's going to require the community to keep up the pressure. And creating a foundation. That could be good. It could be a nightmare. I mean the computer industry has a history of foundations and some of them work out well. I think the average one has just turned into a political nightmare. Things like the OSF and that were just not good.
Moderator: Are they still around?
James Gosling: Yeah, they're still around, but one of the problems with a foundation like that is that you set them up as the people that handle the engineering, and they you've got a bunch of companies that contribute to it. They'll do that while it's politically expedient, and then it just sort of goes away, and there's just kinda nobody whose life is on the line for any of it. So, at some level I don't care what direction it goes so long as the community is well served. And oracle could do that.
You know, in my little "Free Java" creative campaign, I have no illusion, but it's all about just letting them know that we're paying attention.
Moderator: Have they tapped on your door legally in any sense? Saying "Watch what you are saying"
James Gosling: No, there's nothing they can actually do, as far as I know, so long as I don't lie. But even if I lie, given what happens to other people that lie in the press. I mean, nobody has nailed Glen Beck.
Moderator: (laughing) What would they do specifically to still remain good custodians of Java. Because I actually (37:06) had the thought that whenever oracle (inaudible) EU sector, Google well this could be good in some ways because they actually have someone to light a fire under the projects and get things going
James Gosling:So long as they do that. The development of Java is not an inexpensive thing. It takes a fair amount of funding. It's not just about writing code. Learning the code is two or three percent of the expense. You're shipping fifteen million copies a week, just the bandwith is horrible. The QA when you have to worry about something that has thirty issues. When you've got everything, every stock exchange, every phone company on the planet. Their security depends on Java. So it's not a causual piece of testing.
You know, when it comes to open source contributions, our history with contributions over the years have been kinda snarky. We'd get lost of people sending code and fixes. But on average, we'd get a submission that fixed the bug but it caused three or four more. And it probably didn't fix the bug for everybody. It probably only fixed the bug for their one case. And trying to get people in the community to actually think about the whole code base and not just their particular issue today. Doing one line of change means an immense amount of testing.
Most open source projects are way too casual for that. Sometimes when you get bugs that are potential security issues, you have to move fast, you have to put immense resources on getting it done. Maybe it's just one engineer fixing one character in one line, but then testing it and making sure you didn't introduce a bug. The harder stuff is if you have a bug, there are probably people out there who have worked around that bug, so how many of the workarounds are you going to break. And when you've got nine or ten million in the developer community you have enormous applications, trivial fixes are not trivial. And open source projects, the way the average open source projects are constituted. IT's easy to get people to do the fun stuff. It's hard to get people to do the hard stuff.
Like QAing the math libraries. Like doing QA on sine and cosine, you absolutely have to have a PHd in Mathematics. Sine and cosine: it sounds really simple, but there is unbelievable amount of depths of subtlety in there. There are extraordinarily few people on the planet qualified to QA that type of stuff.
Moderator: And that's key. I mean, the department of defense probably bets their trajectories on those so if you get off a little bit then "oops".
James Gosling: So, that particular case is one I've been drawn into over and over again for years. If we could do benchmarks on sine and cosine on intel chips compared to C. We beat C on just about everything except benchmarks on Sine and cosine.
It turns out there's a small issue with the way the sine and cosine hardware is implemented in the spec on the intel platform. And we actually work around it in software. For the ranges from plus or minus five, we are close to intel speeds. You get the larger values, where the intel thing rips. So lots of folks who use math on the Java platform because we do it accurately. We put a lot of effort into it. The fact that we actually cared about that, and lots of people depend on it, but its' not the kind of thing that Joe Hacker is going to do. And it costs actually money. Having somebody like Oracle can actually be a really good thing. Foundations tend to have issues with funding things on that kind of scale. Oracle can doe those thing. But their genetic code, their behavioral genetic code, is not that.
Moderator: So what excites you right now? What's out there right now that you look at and say, that's some cool stuff
James Gosling: There's a lot of cool stuff. I'm all over the map on what's cool. The project I've been helping out on is the control system for an Audi TTS, and that's just indescribable cool. In the enterprise space, things like Cassandra and Voldemort and some of the NoSQL database. I've never got it when it comes to SQL databases. It's like, why? Just give me a hash table and a shitload of RAM and I'm happy. And then you do something to deal with failures. And you look at the way things like the NoSQL movement is. It's various flavors of large scale distributed hash tables and trying to deal with massive scale and massive replication, and you can't back up the database because no tape farm is big enough. And you find scale and reliability can fit together at the same time. So a bunch of those things are really cool. (46:35) I'm actually pretty excited about the sort of pragmatic evolution of the open source movement that is happening. There's kind of a religious fanatic side that is just "Information just wants to be free." It's like look guys, I'm an engineer. I don't want to be an engineer as a hobby. I don't really care about being fabulously wealthy, but I do like to eat. Some of the Open source zealots, their view is kind of like you gotta be a waiter during the day and an actor at night. And it's like, no that doesn't work for me. 47:30 But there's this sort of pragmatic mode that goes, you know what's really valuable about open source is not what's free as in beer, but what's free as in speech. And then the collaborative development model - if you're going to collaborate, like companies collaborating in a non-open source way, the legal frameworks for them end up being nightmares, and if things go snarky, it is a nightmare. The standard open source program is one of the only ways to make collaboration work. But if you make it open source, how do you pay salaries. In the enterprise world its' been working out nicely, because service and support is where the money is. At Sun we had gotten open source on everything, because we came to realize that when you go 48:10 do a licensed software product, you get revenue from the license, but you've also got expense in selling. The marketing and all that stuff you do around selling is often pretty large. There's a lot of overhead in shmoozing customers. And those kind of cancel out.
49:00 Moderator: How is it I understand how Microsoft made money, and then Java came along and say, how is this working? And obviously, I know now, but it took me that much to understand that. How was it explaining that to the people at Sun?
(49:00)James Gosling: At Sun at the time. When you think of the revenue from something. It's this long expression, it's a lot of terms that get added together, and one of them is a license fee. But one of the terms at the time, 15 years ago, was that every software vendor had decided that the only platform they could support was Windows NT. So all the people who were writing software for Sun Systems 15 years ago was telling us they couldn't do it anymore. (50:00) Even though you guys have a better platform, they've got better volume. But IBM was getting the same message. Everybody was getting the message in the software community that they were shutting down development on everything except NT. And for a company like Sun at the time the equation was basically, if we don't do Java, if we don't give software developers a way to develop software for our platform without shutting themselves out from NT then they're just going to abandon us and we're dead.
It was this kind of negative turn in the whole thing that drove working then. And so in the enterprise world open source is working really well.
The place where it falls apart, though, is for desktop software. On the one hand, I really love Gimp and Blender. On the other, the hand, it's total volunteerism. With desktop software, my personal view is that if desktop software requires a support call, you have failed.
James Gosling: So in that world, the service and support model just doesn't work, just can't work. So one of the reasons I was trying to get the Java store done at Sun was to make there be a way for people doing desktop software -- and the original versions of the Java store would support not just Java but any kind of code. But we ended up concentrating on Java code for an awkward reason, which is that if you're delivering software to people, you are implicitly taking on some liability, because if the thing you deliver destroys their machine, then you've got some liability. If people are contributing stuff to the store, how do you know that it's good stuff vs. some rogue, malignant thing.
Moderator: That's one of the challenges that the Google Android store was having.
James Gosling: The thing about delivering Java code is that if you do it well and get the sandbox right, then we can actually make strong statements about how much damage this thing can do. So the store was working was that you could either go through rigorous testing and get the locks taken off the sandbox, or you could deliver what you wanted but it had to have locks on it. And going on the rounds with the lawyers, that's where we had to go. And we really couldn't do that for non-java code.
(54:30) One of the sad things about android was they really didn't pay attention to security issues as much as they should have. Google is kind of a funny company because a lot of them have this peace love and happiness version of evil. And by being overly peach love and happiness, and believing the whole world is peace love and happiness, they end up doing evil, because they really didn't spend enough time thinking about, there are actually nasty people out there. Google puts a lot of effort into security in things like Chrome.
Moderator: But they're pretty good at watching everywhere you go aren't they?
James Gosling: Absolutely. I have this love hate thing with Google these days. They can get kind of creepy.
Moderator: Do you use the browser plug ins that prevent the ads and block and analytic stuff?
James Gosling: No. I mean, I sometimes do.
I used to do them all the time, but I do that more because I didn't like the obnoxious adds.
Moderator: Oh, yeah, like the ones that would pop up and you'd punch a monkey?
James Gosling: Yeah, and the personal privacy stuff, I'm just like, you know, blocking their ads is not going to do it. If you actually want personal privacy, the only thing you can do is disconnect and you have to go live in some obscure valley in New Zealand.
Yeah, I think that's what I've heard. You have to go somewhere in New Zealand to keep Google from watching you.
James Gosling: Yeah, you have to be in a cave so you're out of reach of a satellite. And if you need to spend money, it has to be cash.
Moderator: But it is creepy
James Gosling: It's getting very, very creepy.
Moderator: You wrote a great post about that, the Star Trek vs. Blade Runner. That was a very apt comparison.
Moderator: Oh yeah, utopian vs. dystopian
(57:15)James Gosling: Right, and the thing is the future isn't something that's rammed down our throats. The future is a choice. The human race is six or seven billion odd people each of which is making choices every day. You add up all those choices and that's the direction of humanity. Each of us has fairly small voices, but you add up a lot of small voices and you get big voices. And for people who are in positions where they're molding the core pieces like Computer software. I hear people saying it's all over. Why do we need software? It's like, guys, we've hardly even started. Every last hardware engineer on this planet has a huge impact on the future in a huge portion. Every software developer has been granted lots more votes than one. So vote wisely.
James Gosling: Personally, I like Blade Runner the movie, I just don't want to live there.
Moderator: What's your thoughts on the other languages?
James Gosling: I'm a big fan. I can't say I use them a lot. You know, the Java design was not that I thought it was the perfect language. The whole design concept there was about being comfortable with existing C and C++ developers and seeing bits and pieces they felt cool with.
Clojure. Clojusre's got a lot of coolness about it but it's not for everyone.
Moderator: Is there any one you like more than the other?
James Gosling: I like Scala, but my big problem is that the type theory has gotten really complicated. The language lawyers are driving the bus. It's turning into something that journeyman developers and even people like me╔I started getting into the Scala stuff and my head starts to spin and I go, "what?"
Moderator: So these languages are good for Java, it takes a lot of the burden off of Java as a language because everyone wants "The Kitchen Sink" in Java the language. But now you can run on the JVM and you can have all those nice things.
James Gosling: That was one of the key points behind the JVM. Everything I care about is in the JVM. The JVM has worked out really, really well. One of the things in past lives that has always really bugged me was that you could have two different languages in the system and you could never get them to communicate, and the great thing about JVM and getting them to work together is really easy. I was talking with this guy that does ML and ML is this weird-ass language 1:01 that does theorem proving. And for something like that, it's great, but if you're trying to put up the dialog box, it's really bizarre. And with ML you do ML theorem proving and JVM you do dialog boxes and life is a whole lot simpler. So it just works.
61:58 Moderator: So now that you've left Oracle, what's the future of you? What's up next?
James Gosling: What am I doing?
Moderator: (jokingly) other than driving an Audi of course
Moderator: (jokingly) Yeah, is it all Yahts and Champagne?
James Gosling: I unfortunately did not sell when I should have. So I'm not in the yacht class yet. I actually have to do something about a job one of the days. I'm making a little money doing speaking engagements and things like that.
Moderator: I'm sure there's no shortage of job offers
James Gosling: Yeah, it's sort of the whole, well, what do I want to do when I grow up? And I'm kind of deeply confused about that. Part of the problem is that there's just a whole lot of things that are really, really cool. There's a part of me that love the embedded world. There's a part of me that loves the scientific computing world. I look at what people are doing with large-scale NoSQL stuff and it's cool. Before I was talking to you guys, I was over there talking to SSN folks that are doing stuff with OpenSSO, and it's really fucking cool. You look at the guys in social media and some of them are really cool. Some of them are getting kind of creepy, but some of them are really cool.
Moderator: Yeah, like linking your credit card to you SSN
James Gosling: I'm really happy with LinkedIN. They seem to be doing a good job at being respectable on that scale. The Facebook guys are kind of creepy. And then things like Zynga, I really don't understand. It's probably one of those wrong MB quadrant thing, but people seem to be in love with Farmville and I'm just confused by Farmville.
Have you done much with any cloud computing? I think that's a really cool thing where you turn API into hardware resources.
65:15 James Gosling: Well, certainly all of the large scale database stuff is that. I was really pissed off at Larry's rant about how stupid cloud computing was, and then at his keynote last week he was like, 180 degrees. Make up your mind.
Moderator: What I took from his original rant, though, was that the firm was so nebulous and it was basically taken over by marketing folks but at the same token they're pushing out their own things and joining the cloud.
There was a piece that agrees with that. In some sense cloud computing is what people used to call grid
James Gosling: It was sort of a grid plus deployment management and open access and in the early grid days one of the things that people would often require uniform structure so you would take one thing and put it in the grid and you had to have 64 CPUs exactly with the same memory. But now you sprinkle some virtualization dust all over the thing and you can use the CPUs from you teapot.
Moderator: It's like you're saying you're getting software that offers more choices and basically depending on the old-fashioned operators from hell you're in charge of the hardware. And now the developers end up being able to control the-- 67:30
James Gosling: I'm really happy with the cloud word. Personally, I don't dabble with it that much because building a cloud costs money. Amazon EC2 is cool, but you don't get to dabble with that for long before it gets expensive.
Transcribed by Kathleen Kriz and Cameron McKenzie